Food fight: no AGF on Commons

Get out the popcorn.

This one started on Outreach. (see Commons declares war on Outreach) then moved to the mailing list.

On one corner we have Andrew Lih (blue link, natch), the Outreacher’s outreacher, and author of The Wikipedia Revolution (also a blue link), who tries to reduce some of the perceived “procedural incoherence” with an edit to the AGF guideline….

Oh the irony!

You assumed bad faith on my good faith edit to [[Commons:Assume good faith]].

What would you consider “dishonest” about the edits or the summaries?
Telling folks that the [[Commons:Project scope/Precautionary principle]] is part of the policy dynamic that even experienced Wikipedians may not know about (I certainly didn’t) is most certainly useful.

That people are reverting the edits, in what seems to be an attempt to either hide the precautionary principle or obfuscate it seems quite odd. I’m assuming good faith here, so I’m not ascribing any motives to these
reverts. You did not even give any reason for your revert, whereas I did in fact leave edit summaries.

For reference:

Edit 1 – “add precautionary principle”

Reverted by Yann with no comment.

Edit 2 – “refine wording”

Reverted by Colin with “Nothing to do with AFG [sic] and certainly not
“refine wording” — dishonest edit summary”

I changed “should be deleted” to “may be deleted” in case that was the wording someone had issue with. That’s why the edit summary said “refine wording.”


In the other corner we have Yann Forget:

This was reverted. It is a dishonest edit with a misleading summary.
> Regards,
> Yann
> Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator

Jaigagat means VICTORY OF THE WORLD, and is a peace march from Delhi to Geneva to commemorate the 150 anniversary of Kasturba Ghandi (lol, “article has multiple issues” not to mention templates) and Mahatma Gandhi. Some commemoration, do you think people might be googling these subjects or anything?

All I can say is they better have a lot of porto-potties.

While Andrew (user:Fuzheado) seems to have reason and logic on his side, and attempts to add some stuff to the AGF guidelines to try to help explain this to newbies, Yann is the strong silent type, plus he’s got a block button and a tag-team buddy, Colin in his corner.

In the second ring we have Fae and a few techies, complaining about the admin workload, and proposing some bot solutions, which don’t get very far. Someone brings up the new EU copyright laws, which for some reason are considered to be a barrier.  Or maybe they still remember Fae’s bulk uploader for the British Museum, which cost the Foundation bazillions of dollars to WMUK and only Fae knows how to use it.

In the third ring of the circus we have Asaf, one of the most reasonable persons ever, who recalls an anecdote about offering to help with the Commons workload and being refused.  This was spurred by another offer from Doc Heilman and Samuel Klein, who is one of the sharper tacks in the box, to help recruit more admins to cope with the workload.

But all of a sudden the admin workload is no longer the issue.  Because no one can tell the outreach person what directions they didn’t follow or what precautions they could have taken that would have worked.

Maybe training, yeah, that’s the ticket. And coordination.

A large part of the problem is the disconnection between online and offline communities or types of users. It is quite counterproductive having affiliates, outreach programs, whatever, reaching out to people out to the Wikimediaverse inviting them to use our projects without having any plans or means to have someone from the onwiki communities directly following and monitoring those activities.

As Tomasz wrote: “*And in fact – probably the best thing would be to have in any outreach team at least one person having good knowledge about hostile Common’s habits and how to effectively cope with them :-)*”

This is very true, and IMO very much inescapable.

But is there any way to effectively cope with Commons? Massive training, maybe yes, but training for the toxic admin culture, not for the event organizers, who have dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s.  And get that “offline culture” into an “in-person” event. Maybe they will act differently face to face.  And for heaven’s sake, stop bitching about air fare and being so cheapskate and worrying about false economies.  Spend some money to actually try to solve these problems and stop driving away the newbies. That’s what the money is for.

So meanwhile, back at Commons….

Colin reverts Fuzheado’s edit, calling Fuzheado “dishonest” in the edit summary.    And Yann threatens Fuzheado with a block. Aren’t they supposed to discuss it on the talk page or something?

My money is on Fuzheado, he’s been around since 2003.  On the other hand, he might just leave, and stop bringing in the grants.  Even hard-core Wiki-addicts can get fed up. What’s Dr Blofeld doing these days, since they tried to subject him to one of their show trials.

UPDATE: Oh dearie me, I didn’t see this before, guy has a serious messiah complex — big red banner “God is busy, may I help you”   — if this isn’t an oxymoron… it is already stipulated he is a Commons admin.

user Yann - God is busy may I help you


2 thoughts on “Food fight: no AGF on Commons

  1. Commons sure does seem to be the go-to place when you get de-sysopped from your native language wiki. I met Yann (de-sysopped from fr.wp in 2007) when he express deleted an Abode of Chaos photo that Cirt — qua Sagecandor (de-sysopped from en.wp in 2011) — didn’t like back when PropOrNot was in the news. It only took 7 hours (§). Cirt didn’t even have to nominate it for deletion ! Weirdly they don’t seem to have interacted on commons. Maybe there’s a logical explanation other than a phone call, or that special defrocked-atman telepathy, but I still haven’t found it. ^^

  2. So, the boilerplate on the template says it has already been deleted as copyvio

            05:07, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

    But according to the log, it was deleted after the appearance of the template.

            12:04, 13 December 2016 Yann talk contribs deleted page File:Putin @ Abode of Chaos.jpg (Copyright violation, see Commons:Licensing) (global usage; delinker log)
            12:48, 11 December 2016 SashiRolls talk contribs uploaded File:Putin @ Abode of Chaos.jpg (User created page with UploadWizard)

    If it had been nominated for deletion, it should appear on one of these deletion requests for 12/11, 12/12 or 12/13, but it does not. But there was this mass deletion discussion for “Category:Demeure du Chaos” on 12/13 in which it was mentioned that the Putin file was already deleted.

    Pretty hard to argue this type of deletion on the basis of selective enforcement, even if it is. And I think no one understands the French “freedom of panorama” copyvio thing, so it might be normal to contact someone with French background by email with this type of question, and they might respond automatically, especially if the situation appeared to be clear cut, again b/c the response to “copyvio” is so Pavlovian on Commons.

    Why someone living in (?) India might claim to be a native speaker of French I have no clue. The lingua franca (hee hee) of India, if you will pardon my pun, is English.

    So it didn’t go through the usual channels. On the other hand, with both the template and the participation in the Demeure du Chaos discussion, your nemesis didn’t exactly try to cover his tracks.

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